Russia has been maligning defense
threat reduction agency or Ditra
programs and personnel in an attempt to
undermine the integral role the agency
plays in us . And international
security . Russia seeks to erode Ditra
s capability to prevent and prevail
over W MD threats by driving wedges
between Ditra and international
partners in peaceful non proliferation
efforts for Russia . W MD
disinformation is cheap and it can be
effective when playing on primal as
Russian officials invoke increasingly
outlandish claims detracting from
crucial international discourse on non
proliferation . It is important for
Ditra to provide truth and demonstrate
the illogicality proffered by Russian
purveyors join us today as we speak to
a subject matter expert from Ditra at
the biological threat reduction program
who has first hand experience with
Ditch's former partnership with Russia
and the ongoing disinformation campaign
aimed at the agency . Hello everybody
and welcome to Ditch talks . I'll be
your host today , Andrea Chaney . And
with me today is Dr Rebecca Dunphy ,
the Chief of Science for our biological
threat reduction program at Dira .
Doctor Dunphy received her doctoral
degree in virology from Harvard
University and her specific expertise
is related to identifying viral
variants that could impact public
health . So thank you for being here
today and I'll go ahead and just kick
it off and have you start and give us a
brief introduction , introduction of
who you are and why you are here today .
All right . Well , thanks again for
having me . I'm happy to be here and
talk about the very important work that
our program is doing . Um , part of the
Cooper threat reduction program that's
been um a program at the Dod , the
Department of Defense for over 30 years .
And I'm very excited to talk about the
work we're doing with all of our
partner countries to reduce the threats
posed by infectious diseases through
the biological threat reduction program
or BT RP for short . And so a little
bit about my background , I've been
working with the biological Threat
reduction program for over 10 years in
some capacity . Um looking at all of
the scientific and technical things
that the program has done to
cooperatively work with our partners .
So we're here today because there ,
there has been a lot of false
information and , and disinformation
and accusations perpetrated by nations
such as Russia and China . I'm sure the
audience is even familiar with some of
that specifically referring to the US
biolabs mistakenly called the , you
know , secret labs . All those Miss
Miss nomenclatures in Ukraine and other
Eastern European States . So why don't
you just tell us as the subject matter
expert ? What kind of work does ditch
do or has done in Ukraine . Absolutely .
And I think I would start off by
bringing it to the big picture and
state right off the bat . That
department of defense does not develop
biological weapons . Um , nor do we
work with our foreign partners to do so .
And so I think that that is a very
important point to make up front . Um ,
and we have been working cooperatively
with partners from both Ukraine and the
former Soviet Union for over 30 years .
And so we have been engaged with these
partners to reduce threats as
opposed to support bio weapons or
other sort of secret biological um
laboratories . And so starting in 2005 ,
we became engaged with Ukraine as a
Cooper partner to work with them to
strengthen their facilities . They
inherited a lot of facilities from the
Soviet Union that were aimed at um
potentially building weapons of mass
destruction or components of that . Um
And so we have worked to secure those
facilities and other facilities working
on um reducing threats from the
biological pathogens and infectious
is um we've been working with them to
provide training and equipment . Um And
we've also been working them in cooper
of biological um bios surveillance
projects to look at sort of the threats
that might be present in that part of
the world . So can you tell me as the
subject matter expert here today , what
kind of work has ditch done or is doing ?
Still in Ukraine . Uh Absolutely . So
I'd like to start off by saying right
off the bat that the US Department of
Defense does not develop biological
weapons , nor do we support our foreign
partners to do so . And so all of the
work that we have done is peaceful and
co-operative in nature to reduce the
threats and not support development .
Um , so with Ukraine specifically ,
we've been engaged with that partner
since 2005 . Um And we've been working
with them on securing um the
facilities and the capabilities that
they inherited when the fall of the
Soviet Union um created uh sovereign
nations that had components of the
weapons of mass destruction programs um
that existed in the Soviet Union . And
so we have worked with the partners to
secure both the biological facilities
and infectious disease sites about 46
in total . Um And these range from
biological laboratories to um remote
field sites that are in detecting and
diagnosing infectious diseases . Um We
are also working with them on training
and equipment provision and also
studies that monitor the potential
biological threats that might be in
that region of the world . And one
thing I will say about all the
facilities that we've worked with with
Ukraine , that these are Ukrainian
owned and operated facilities . So our
program and the Department of Defense
does not own or operate any of these
labs . Uh We may go and visit to
monitor ongoing activities where we're
supporting construction or renovation ,
but these are solely Ukrainian owned
and operated very , very good . Uh So
it sounds like your program , the US
government has come in for , for
positive purposes to , to provide
support and then , and kind of hand off
the responsibility to the Ukrainians
overall for the safety of their country
and the world . Dr Dumpy . Can you
speak to the kind of biological hazards
that were removed from these Russian
facilities ? Uh I can a little bit .
Yes . And so when the Cooper Threat
Reduction program went into these areas
into Ukraine , as well as other
countries , we found that these
facilities were really in a state of
disrepair that they needed to be
secured , that there was infrastructure
and equipment that was falling apart .
And so we worked to basically secure
and remediate these , these types of
infrastructure and um equipment so that
it was more secure and safe for our
partners . And so a couple of examples
of this would be at , there was a ,
there was a testing site in Uzbekistan ,
um called Baz Renia Island or Baz
Island for short . And we removed 12
tons of anthrax from the soil in that
um in that island testing facility that
was part of the um leftovers from ,
from testing that , that um you know ,
that weapon , we also went to
Kazakhstan in the Step Noor production
facility and dismantled the equipment
that was present there . Um In Ukraine ,
we have not necessarily dismantled
that kind of large infrastructure or
found that we needed to , you know ,
shore up any facilities . But we did
have to provide repairs , construction
and renovation to make sure that their
facilities were safe . And also to make
sure that they had the right types of
training and equipment to do the
mission of making sure that they could
detect infectious diseases for some of
these cleanup operations you just
mentioned and ditch is heavily ,
heavily involved in supporting that .
Is there any other interagency partners
or foreign partners that helped with
that ? Oh , yes , we work with many
interagency partners and also partners
around the globe . And so the
biological threat reduction program
often works with the World Health
Organization . Um Some United Nation
organizations around Food and
Agriculture . Um We work with the US
Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention and the US State Department .
And so all of our partners , um it's
really sort of a international effort
in our partnership with Ukraine . It
isn't just us working with them and
Ukraine has been a very good partner
and very transparent in working with us .
I I really find that mission pretty
fascinating and I think our audience
would um I just had some technical
questions of like how long does an
operation like that ? Let's take Vase
Island , for example . Um How long does
that take ? Is that , is that a year
long project ? Is it multiple years ?
Those are usually multiple year
projects because not only are you
working to go in there and potentially
remove the threat and remediate it ,
but you also want to ensure that the
capacity that you are either taking
away or providing um can be sustained
by that partner . And so if we are
strengthening the security of a
facility or we are providing training
to our partners , we want to ensure
that they are able to maintain that and
even build upon it in the future . And
so we're looking to strengthen their
own capability to do this because again ,
this isn't a department of defense
capability that we're building , this
is a Ukrainian partner capacity that
we're aiming to , aiming to work with
them to strengthen very good . Um And i
it looks like it sounds like you um
these , these , some of these cleanups
steps and Vaz Island , those were ,
that's up to 20 years ago now , at this
point , right ? What happens post
deemed clean like is the land , I mean ,
is the land just done at that point or
what do we do going forward ? Well , so
I think for those particular areas ,
we've , we've cleaned things up , we've
determined that it's cleaned up . And
so what we would continue to do is to
work with our partners to monitor and
ensure that there's nothing that might
pop up later on that they weren't aware
of . Uh We may also , if we're working
with our partners on training or
equipment , we may help them by
refreshing the equipment or potentially
providing repairs to a facility or
doing refresher training to kind of
continue to ensure that those
capabilities that we're trying to
provide them um are maintained long
term . So BT RP is part of the overall
cooper threat reduction program which
has a pretty rich history and a long
legacy to its name now part of Dire ,
which we're lucky to have . Um I know
it was formally known as the Non L
program or audience might relate to
that . But can you speak a little bit
about CTRS , bigger , bigger history
overall ? Yes , of course . So the
Cooper Threat reduction program was
basically born out of the fall of the
Soviet Union . And so senators , Nun
and Lugar recognized that there was a
threat posed when the Soviet Union
broke up and there were these new
sovereign countries that had these
components of former weapons programs
and systems in them . Um , and they
didn't necessarily have the capability
or capacity to deal with those threats
all on their own . And so Congress
began the program to work cooperatively
with these countries in the former
Soviet Union , which included Russia
actually , um , to help dismantle
secure and eliminate those threats . So
Russia cleaned up their own problem .
Correct . Correct . They were , they
were a willing partner in working with
us cooperatively for many years knowing
all that and that , you know , Russia
actually was part of cleaning up their
own problem . And we continue to take
that on and continue today . Even
working with that as the US government ,
it must frustrate you guys a little bit
to see what they're saying now and hear
what they're saying now when they were
our partners at one time , what else
can you say about that ? So it is a
little confusing to hear them talk
about how we are being very um
secretive and that we aren't being
transparent about the work we're doing
with Ukraine because our history with
the former Soviet Union and with Russia
themselves has been part of this very
transparent cooper operation . And we
worked with Russia as well on three
areas where we also have been working
with Ukraine , biological safety and
security , um the
infrastructure and elimination and also
those co-operative studies to monitor
threats . Russia was also a willing
partner and a lot of those that work
with our program in the past . And so
we're , we're doing the same types of
activities with Ukraine and other
partners . And so Russia is very
familiar with what we're trying to do
because they were our co-operative
program uh partner for a long time in
those efforts . The allegations about
the studies that we're supporting um to
monitor threats in particular has been
a little bit confounding because Russia
participated in some of those very same
studies . And in fact , even recently ,
if you do a search via the
internet and you look up studies on
you know , any of the bio weapons
programs , types of pathogens that they
accuse us of , you know , doing , you
know , illegal research on , you'll see
that they are also investigating some
of the same problems because these are
infectious disease threats that are
impacting everybody globally and not
just , you know , the US and their and
their partners . And so , even as
recently as 2022 there was a manuscript
that the biological threat reduction
program supported the publication of
and there was a Russian author working
with the Ukrainians to , you know ,
characterize soil pathogens to sort
of , you know , very , very open and
transparent work . And so the fact that
Russia is saying that we're being
secretive and that we're working on ,
you know , offensive research is just
flat out wrong . It's interesting
because there is a project that they
keep bringing up in the allegations
that they put forth , which is a
project that's on migratory birds . And
I think we called it up four , which
just stands for Ukrainian project .
Nothing nefarious about that . But it
accuses us of , you know , cooperating
on this nefarious research . But if you
again do an internet search , you'll
find that Russia supported some of the
very same types of studies on the same
types of scientific questions . And so
again , these are global biological
threats that impact everybody . And you
know , our goal is to be open and
transparent about that work and support
other countries and being open and
transparent as well . So what if I
Google up four , will I see a bunch of
you ? Probably , you'll probably see a
picture of a , of a map of the world
with like these lines that show the
different migration patterns of , of
birds . And you know the fact that they
may carry these viruses that are of
danger to humans or other animals . And
if you looked up the , the Russian
authored paper , you'd see the same map
with the same picture of the world with
these pathways . So you could put them
side by side and not be able to tell
which project they came from . So your
program and , and Ditra specifically
has found themselves in the , in the
news and , and I miss some conspiracy
theories and all that over the last
couple of years . Uh I know last year
you particularly , you specifically
participated in the biological weapons
convention with some other panelists
from your organization . What can you
say about that ? What were some
revelations ? What did , how did
Russians handle that ? Some partner
nations and , and the US government ?
Yes . So that was a very interesting
experience because it was a session
that basically we joined the
Ukrainians in kind of defending our
co-operative work against the Russian
allegations that we are doing something
nefarious . And I specifically had been
part of that group from the Defense
reduction Agency that went there uh to
talk about our work specifically around
the scientific work that we do with our
Ukrainian partners . And what I found
really interesting about that was that
when we met up with the Ukrainians to
talk about , here's the different
points that we would like to bring up
to refute these allegation . The
scientific points that I was bringing
up were the same ones that the
Ukrainian scientists were also bringing
up . So what's even more interesting
about that is that these were often the
same points that other member nations
at the at the meeting were were raising
as well . And I think even the Russian
public and scientists in the Russian
Federation agreed that there's nothing
nefarious about these types of studies
and this type of scientific work . And
so that was a eye opener for me
because , you know , you're coming from
two different cultures . And even
though we've been working together for
a long time with the Ukrainians , the
fact that we can independently come up
with the same talking points and the
same points to refute these allegations
is an indicator that , you know ,
everybody is coming with the same truth
as opposed to this false allegations
that are coming our way . I heard you
just say that you , you think Russian
scientists feel the same way . Uh What
do you , why do you say that ? So I
believe there was a document that was
signed by a maybe
1000 Russian scientists , uh that sort
of said , you know , we believe these
allegations are false and , and we
believe in the peaceful intent of this
type of work when the public hears
about these labs and , and you're
educating us very well on , on what
they really do . But Russia still
screams pretty loud of what they think
we're doing and they're trying to
convince the public it's , it's pretty
nefarious and , and wrong . Um It's ,
it's been seen on Twitter and , and
it's been reported that human
experimentation is part of this . What
can you say about that as the official
representative , we don't do anything
that is at all involved in human
experimentation . The work that we
support is all on ensuring the security
of the facilities , ensuring that
people are working with samples that
they collecting to , you know , as part
of diagnostics , right ? Like when you
go to your doctor's office and they
take a throat culture to say , do you
have strep throat like these types of
diagnostic samples or samples from sick
animals that , you know , they're , the
veterinarian has collected and they're
doing testing on those samples . We
want to make sure that they're doing it
safely and that they can do it
accurately . There's no going out and
testing on humans . There's no going
out and tagging birds or bats which are
other allegations that I've heard um
mosquitoes , you know , engineering
mosquitoes . We don't , we don't do any
of that . Our focus is really on are
the systems that are in place to detect
biological threats , functioning . And
so we're not looking to do anything
that has anything to do with human
experimentation or creating new types
of , you know , animals or anything .
That's sort of crazy science fiction
like that . Crazy . Uh Yeah . So it ,
it sounds kind of like that all makes
sense to me . I can , I can relate to
that and it sounds like um they're kind
of pulling a classic ploy of just
shaping , shaping the narrative
differently . But the , the public is
believing it , it sounds much more
nefarious and much more , you know ,
just scary . And that seems to be um I
mean , especially after , you know ,
we're coming out of a global pandemic ,
right ? So these themes of things
must have been created to create these
bad things . That is something that is
a narrative that will resonate with
certain groups of people and it's not
truthful , but it plays on those fears
of the unknown and we're really not
and that type of stuff at all . In fact ,
what we're trying to do is help define
and detect and report these types of
pathogen outbreaks before they become
something that is scary and could be a
threat . And so we're , we're very far
from what the Russians are
saying that we're doing and creating
and hopefully people will realize that
it's really important to understand
what is out there and how to combat it .
Then sort of believe that people are
out there trying to create new and
different things . Recognizing that
your organization has been dealing with
the disinformation , the false
narratives being thrown out there .
What can you say ? Like , do you guys
just counter it ? Do you call them
liars ? How do you handle the
disinformation ? How , how does , how
does the US government kind of handle
that ? Well , I think one of the
important things is to make sure that
the truth is gets out there . And we've
always really prioritized transparency
and openness in what we're doing . And
when we're working with our partners
and funding studies to look at the
presence of potential threats in the
country we're promoting and ensuring
that those results are published , you
know , for anybody to see in the , in
the community internationally . Uh We
promote reporting and making sure that
people are , you know , talking about
what they're encountering et cetera .
And so part of countering that
disinformation is just making sure that
the truth is actually already out there
and is part of that
narrative that's ongoing regardless of
countering these allegations that come
up every time they come up , we will of
course , sort of refute them with the
truth and facts , but sort of
remembering and , and continuing to
stress that we are a co-operative
program and a peaceful one and we are
working with full and open transparency .
We're not trying to hide anything . Um
is one of the ways that we can
hopefully at least set an environment
where you know , this , this barrage of
disinformation . Um and that Bo Malign
influence can really be uh not , not ,
not gain traction as part of that ,
that campaign that's constantly ongoing .
Why do you think the the Russians
continue to push this narrative ? And I
mean , part two is that , is anyone
believing it ? The scientist
to me says , I hope why would anybody
believe something so preposterous ? Um
But the scientist to me also knows that ,
you know , there are a lot of things
that people don't understand that they
will believe because the story sounds
real and plausible . And I think the
campaigns with misinformation are
really easy to put out there because ,
you know , you can , you can make
something up and push it out much more
quickly than you can push out the truth
and make sure that it's accurate and
fact checked and all of that . And so I
think it is easy to spread this dense
information . Um And it's easy to use
this as justification for other
activities . Um If you're sort of
already spinning a narrative where you
don't have to worry about the truth ,
you're just pushing out these stories .
Um It's much harder , push out
something accurate when you want to
make sure that you get all of your
facts , right ? But that is something
that we try to do as an organization
for sure is make sure that we have our
facts straight and we're putting those
out there and we're not just making
something out , making something up and
pushing it out to , you know , sway
public opinion . You said you've ,
you've done work with , with the
biological Threat reduction program for
10 years , you have a strong science
background . Um , you've been working
with the program since before . There
was negative kind of stories
surrounding it . So why do you continue
to do what you do ? Why did you get
into it and why continue to do this
when it seems like there's some
naysayers and just falsities out there .
Why do you continue ? So I think that I
have always been very
interested in the type of
work that really makes an impact on
both the world and on public health and
the biological threat reduction program
sort of does the best of both worlds
and that it both , you know , protects
national security , which is something
that is resonates , but also does it
through enhancing global public health ,
right ? And so those are two things
that I think are really rewarding to me
and to work with a program that makes
such an impact with , especially with
our partners . I think one of the
things that I really enjoy about
working with this program is that this
isn't something that the United States
is doing alone . It is something that
we are working with our partners
cooperatively and together reducing
that threat as opposed to , you know ,
one single entity or individual because
working with a program that sort of
looks at the holistic way to combat
biological threats means that you are
basically setting the foundation to
ensure that no pandemic
will totally take us by surprise .
Right . We'll be able to be confident
that partners across the world will be
able to recognize that there's a threat
and to at least say , hey , there's a
problem here , we need help . And I
think as somebody who has worked in a
lab before and has sort of looked at
the very minutia of , you know , what's
happening at the molecular level . The
fact that the work that we're doing day
in and day out really has a significant
impact um is very rewarding . We've
talked a lot about the ongoing
allegations to the US and , and partner
nations in areas like Ukraine and , and
Kazakhstan and other places . What
about other regions of the world ? Do
you see this a similar pattern ? I we
do . So we work in the biological
threat reduction program with partners
across the world in multiple regions um
in the Middle East in Southeast Asia
and also in Africa and in Africa , in
particular , you know , we've done a
lot of good work um to build capacity
and capability to detect infectious
disease threats . Um The Ebola outbreak
in 2013 , 2014 is something that the
BT RP was very involved in ensuring
that partners had the right types of
diagnostics and could um deal with the
outbreak safely . And what we see
occurring even now throughout Africa is
that these information campaigns are
starting up to sort of do similar
things . So doubt about , you know ,
intentions accuse the United States of
potentially being involved in the
release of , you know , specific
pathogens . Um There was some
information going around that , you
know , the United States or dod labs
were somehow involved in the monkeypox
outbreak or now ox , they call it um ox
outbreak . And so , you know , we see
similar things happening , but it seems
to be that wherever the program is
doing good work that is actually
helping to reduce the threats . We're
seeing this counter narrative that
they're trying to sow doubt and fear
about what is the Department of Defense
doing here . And again , it's the same
sort of open and transparent work that
we've done in other places . We're
working to build that capacity and
capability for our partners to detect
characterize and report infectious
diseases . Um Nothing nefarious ,
nothing secretive . We're very
transparent about it . That's a very
good point to say that wherever we're
doing really good work , they just say
we're not . So you talked about um
transparency obviously and you said we ,
we just continue to make sure that the
facts are already out there and readily
available . So where can our public
find um information on your program ?
And just di in general , I think the
information is out there . I know that
the defense Threat reduction Agency has
a whole page devoted to making sure
that the facts of the program are out
there and you can look there , I think
there's , again , we've supported a lot
of publication and so you can Google
and you will see that we have ensured
that our partners are putting out that
information . So I would say for
official information , definitely go to
our Ditra site . Um But , but yeah , we
are , we are very transparent about the
work we're doing . Finding more about
BT RP . You can find more about the
specific programs we did um in Ukraine
and in Russia , we're not trying to
hide anything . So the information is
out there . Well , thank you , Doctor
Dumpy . That was all very good
information and you pointed us where we
can gather more . So and our audience
appreciates hearing from that from you
and we appreciate your time today and
thank you . All right . Thank you so
much .